Notes:
Once known for wrestling a bear, Phillip Wylie is now a leading penetration tester and mentor to many. In this episode, he tells our host, Jason Nickola, the story of his unlikely path to cybersecurity and how it's become a career he "lives and breathes."
He offers advice on how to become a mentor to others trying to build their career, as well as ways to overcome common fears like public speaking. Phillip and Jason also discuss the importance of sharing knowledge through teaching and community participation to increase confidence and learn new skills.
Bio:
Phillip Wylie is a penetration tester with more than 21 years of experience in information technology and information security. He is an adjunct professor teaching ethical hacking and web app pentesting at Richland College in Dallas, Texas. Phillip is the founder and director of the Pwn School Project, an educational meetup group teaching pentesting and ethical hacking. He has the following certifications OSCP, GWAPT, and CISSP.
Transcript:
Jason Nickola:
This is "Trust Me, I'm Certified," brought to you by GIAC Certifications, a podcast exploring how to conquer imposter syndrome. I'm your host, Jason Nickola, and today we have Phillip Wylie to talk about mentorship and teaching as a way of not only learning the ropes, but also becoming a larger part of the InfoSec community.
Jason Nickola: Hey, welcome to "Trust Me, I'm Certified." Thanks a lot for being here. My name's Jason Nickola. I'm your host and with us we have Phillip Wylie. Phillip is going to give us some insight into his background as a security professional and help us dig into the importance of mentorship and cybersecurity. So with that, Phillip, thanks a lot for being here.
Phillip Wylie: Thanks for asking me to join you, Jason. It's an honor to be on your first podcast.
Jason Nickola:
Yeah. I've heard you called the Chuck Norris of InfoSec by others in the past. So I'm interested to dig into some of the things that we're going to cover here and your background.
Phillip Wylie:
Okay.
Jason Nickola:
So let's start with your journey to InfoSec. What was Phillip Wylie's professional life like before you started working in technology as you're kind of trying to figure out what it is that you want to do? How did that look for you?
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, so I'll kind of give you the scenic route. I had an unusual path into InfoSec. When I was in high school, I really didn't know what I wanted to do once I got out of high school. Some of my friends, since I competing in powerlifting and lift weights, they said, you're a big guy, why don't you go into pro wrestling? And I really hadn't thought about that, that really sounds kind of cool. So I signed up for wrestling school. I tried that for a few years. I actually was doing televised matches and I got married and decided to get out of it because I wasn't making enough money.
Jason Nickola:
Right.
Phillip Wylie:
As a wrestler and needed more stable careers. So I kind of got out of that, worked in retail, a manual labor, a lot of different types of areas and nothing really clicked, nothing I really enjoyed. And one day I was watching television and saw a commercial for a trade school and they had a computer assisted drafting program. So I went to school and learned AutoCAD and became a draftsman. And while I was working as a draftsman, I found out that I had more of a natural ability and knack for computers. This was in '93, '94 when I first got my first CAD job. And before that I had no exposure to computers and from working with them, people would have problems, and I would figure out how to fix things because back then, not a lot of company had their own IT departments.
Jason Nickola:
Right.
Phillip Wylie:
And so that seemed a lot more interesting to me. And I was working for a company and we had the consultant come in and he was certified in Novell NetWare. He was a CNE and they were billing $50 an hour, which we were making 15 bucks an hour where I worked, we were being billed at $30 an hour. So I'm thinking, this guy's making more money than I am. I need to do what he's doing. And it seems a lot more interesting. So I taught myself how to build computers. And then I ended up taking a Novell NetWare network operating system course, which lasted about 90 days. This was in '97. It was back when the dot com boom was really taking off. So there's a lot of sysadmin jobs. So I got a job as a sysadmin. I did that for a little over six years, moved into information security.
First year and half I was doing network security, working with firewalls and intrusion detection systems, and our company got a new CISO and he had more of a modern idea of the way cybersecurity programs were run. And so he took us all of a sudden, and the team did the same exact thing. So he split us up into different functions. And fortunately, I got moved into AppSec, which really got me interested in pen testing because I was using web application vulnerability scanners. I was starting to learn about pen tests. And then in 2012, the company I was working for, they were getting out of the mortgage business and they said if they couldn't sell the mortgage company, they were going to close it down. So fortunately I found a job in consulting as a pen tester. And so that's how I got my foot in.
And out of all the things I've done in my career, it's been the most enjoyable. Coming up in March will make eight years that I've been working as a pen tester. I've been in IT and cyber security for a little over 22 years. This January made 16 years since I moved into InfoSec. So it's been a really great change. I've really enjoyed being an InfoSec from the beginning and then getting into pen testing. It's really kind of one of my hobbies. I live and breathe this stuff, so I like it to share that with other people. So it's been a good fit for me, a really good career move.
Jason Nickola:
So that's such an interesting journey because as you are going through your development and building your skills, you're almost doing it in tandem with the industry overall and just the market overall deciding that hey, this security stuff is something that we have to pay attention to. So as you're building your career, it's almost like there's this platform ahead of you of a cyber security industry that is just ready to catch that motivation and that curiosity as you're building those skills. So it's a nice little match of the timelines there. You got to develop your skills early on and then everything was kind of laid out for you to try to move into cybersecurity, eventually into pen testing as things are really coming into their own as an industry.
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, it was really fortunate because the thing I was doing was what I wanted to do. And fortunately there were a lot of career opportunities and the salary was good. So that was really fortunate.
Jason Nickola:
So you mentioned learning about computers at the office and you didn't have a ton of background or experience with them before, but then you moved into starting to build your own. I'm just curious, what were some of the resources that you used to be able to figure out things like that? Because today in the modern day that anything that you want is right at your fingertips just with a Google search away, right. But that hasn't always been the case, especially for things that were more technical or complex. So where you kind of just hacking at it until you figured it out or were there some resources or even people maybe that that were really valuable in trying to get that stuff figured out?
Phillip Wylie:
Actually where I was there back then, like you said that there weren't all the online stores like there are now to order components and stuff. And fortunately the Dallas area had a lot of stores that sold computer components and one of the guys my wife used to work with, she worked in healthcare, he had a side business doing IT, computer repairs, and different technology related services. And he had shared with me the resources, places where he got his parts from. And so I went and got the parts and put it together and just kind of followed what little documentation came with it. And that's how I learned. And it was a big learning experience. Just learning how to put a computer together, how everything works. Because when you do that, not everything works right the first time. So you get a little troubleshooting experience from that.
Jason Nickola:
Absolutely, yeah. And little did you know back then that, fast forward to your life as a penetration tester and there's an entire career in trying to get things figured out and just sticking with it until things bend the way that you want them. So I find, and I don't know if you echo this sentiment, but I find that people who have extensive backgrounds in troubleshooting professionally or even just in their personal lives, it translates really, really well the cybersecurity because a lot of what we're doing, especially in the offensive arts is just kind of stabbing at stuff and trying to figure things out until we can start to make things click. Especially when you're starting out with very little information or poorly written instructions or manuals, right?
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, I agree. And troubleshooting's big, that's one of the things people overlook because when I was working one of my first sysadmin jobs, the first couple of jobs I did were just basically install after install and I went to work for this company and their environment had just kind of rapidly grown. They had acquired a lot of different mortgage companies. Stuff was constantly breaking and there were three of us that were on call, we would trade on call and it felt like you were there all the time and I was really close to quitting. But then I stopped and stepped back and look at the situation. I had all this extensive install experience and I could install a network operating system in my sleep, build computers and all that. But the piece I was missing was the troubleshooting. So I stuck it out and it was a very valuable experience. Like you said, that's a needed skill for security, especially offensive security.
Jason Nickola:
Sure. We talked a little bit about the growth of the industry and we're at a point now where people who are just coming in can be cyber specialists, right? And so they haven't necessarily had the background of being an sysadmin or a network administrator and maybe don't have as much expertise in troubleshooting and they're just exclusively focused on cybersecurity. You do a lot of mentoring and you're in higher ed and you do a lot of teaching in the community, which we'll get into. But do you see that as a potential issue in trying to flesh out the skills of some newer people to the industry that some of the backgrounds in networking and systems administration and things like that aren't necessarily there and what can we do to try to fill more of that in?
Phillip Wylie:
Yes, I totally agree with that. And one of the things people that are wanting to get in need to understand, you need to build that base. And one way you can look at it is like a college degree. You take certain classes for this certain degree for a reason, your reading, your writing, your communication skills, as well as the technology, and from a pen tester perspective, if you're wanting to break into something, if you know that technology and how to secure that technology, it makes it easier to break into. So yeah, a lot of people are missing the fundamentals and the basics and it's not wasted time because as a pen tester you get command line or a shell to a system and you know Linux command line or Windows command line, you're going to get a lot further than someone that doesn't have that experience for sure. Yeah, you could still get it, but you're going to be doing a lot of Googling and a lot more trial and error and it's going to take you longer to do that task than someone that had the background
Jason Nickola:
For sure.
Phillip Wylie:
But I think people really need to look into getting those basics. And even if they go through some of the basic certs before you move on into cyber security, understanding how operating the systems work and understanding how networks work. And then getting into some entry level security stuff.
Jason Nickola:
Right. So at what point did you first start to notice a formal industry and cybersecurity training and certification and what's some of your background with the training courses and certifications?
Phillip Wylie:
Seems like a lot of that started catching on I guess 2008 or 2010. The industry had been out there for a while. There was a few courses and the training I got security wise was related to pen testing. And I remember back then one of the first courses I took, back when I was getting into security was Foundstone had their ultimate hacking course, you know Foundstone, the writers of the hacking exposed books.
Jason Nickola:
Right.
Phillip Wylie:
So I went through some of that. There wasn't a lot of - the training back then was more vendor specific. So if you wanted to get checkpoint firewall certified, there was stuff related to that and so it was more vendor specific. Now I'm seeing more vendor neutral stuff like SANS and some of these other courses that are more vendor neutral, which I think is a lot better way to learn. That way you're not learning how just to use a product, you're understanding firewall rules and how to configure those.
Jason Nickola:
Right, absolutely. So you are very focused on kind of giving back and training some of the next crop of cybersecurity professionals. Talk for a minute about some of your experience with mentorship. Is there someone when you were coming up, you mentioned your wife's coworker who kind of got you started in catalogs and where to order computer components. Is there someone who showed you the way or maybe had a path that you could follow as you started to develop your skills and, and how has that been for you in becoming what you are now, which is one of the more well-known mentors in the cybersecurity industry?
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, the approach I took and really actually wished I had taken more advantage of mentoring and really didn't think about it mentoring back when I was getting started out. But fortunately I had a coworker that we worked on the same team as sysadmins and when he moved into the security team it got me interested in security and he would share information with me and I started to do the same thing before I got into really mentoring. I guess I was kind of mentoring at some point, I would talk to people that were interested in becoming pen testers and I would share resources with them. And you know, by having a mentor or someone that's been there, done that, you can really filter out some of the resources that are not good because there's a lot of information out there and it's not always coming from a good source.
So it's good to have that good source or mentor that can really help there. So my starting out as mentoring was just sharing information with people at local meetups. And then some people were a little long-term mentoring. I have a good friend of mine that I knew from my CAD drafting days when he was trying to get into security from IT. We reconnected and I'd kind of mentored him over the years. And now he's actually in pen testing but started out just sharing information and then one of the things about mentoring is mentoring doesn't all come in one size because there's sometimes people on Twitter they'll do like a Mentor Monday. So someone's looking for mentors. You can look out there for that hashtag. And if I find someone that needs help, I'll talk to anyone and just see what level of help they need, if they need a lot of help.
Maybe at the time I've got too many people I'm mentoring, but a lot of times it's just people needing to be pointed in the right direction, just some resources and a starting point. I have a lot of people on LinkedIn and Twitter that'll send me direct messages asking that. But going to the local meetups is was one of the ways I like to network with people and conferences to meet people that I can help out. And I like to do workshops at conferences and webinars and things to teach. So it's a very enjoyable thing. An interesting thing about that is, before I got into running my own meetup, I started the Pwn School project, which is educational based. But before I started that in teaching, I would watch like a hundred movies a year, at least a hundred movies in the theater.
So I love movies. And then I noticed after starting Pwn School in 2018 and I had started teaching that year, I was looking at my own movie list and I thought, I'm not gonna make a hundred this year. But one thing is I noticed was that I was a lot happier from it. And what things I like to give anyone, if your purpose in life or things you're trying to do, if you do it with a good intent, I believe that you're going to reap success because a lot of things I've done, I don't teach to make money, but it brings me happiness. But you know, I really haven't experienced other activities.
Jason Nickola:
Right. Yeah. I can absolutely echo that. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was to just focus on doing the right thing and giving back and trying to bring as many people along for the ride and improve kind of the station of as many people as you can and success and happiness will kind of take care of themselves. And that is certainly been my experience with it. And it sounds like you're kind of in the same boat.
Phillip Wylie:
Yes. And one of the things I've noticed too is that things have shifted because back when I was getting started in IT back in '97, there were a lot of people that didn't want to share information because it was their job security. They wanted to keep that edge and so they didn't really share. But I'm finding more and more people are opening up to it and then leading as an example, some people see you helping out in the community and inspires them to do the same thing.
Jason Nickola:
Sure. Yeah. Especially where somebody volunteers their time and maybe they give a talk at a conference or they go to a workshop and they teach somebody TCP/IP or something like that, share a little bit of their story as you've done here. And I find that it can be so important for people going through the process just to hear from and see and interact with other people who have gone through the same kind of thing and been very successful in doing that. So when you're trying to learn something complicated and not quite getting it or looking for that break, or kind of looking for a shoulder to lean on to try to discuss what some of the troubles are, when you hear from someone that looks like you or sounds like you or comes from where you came from, doing the things that you want to be doing, it's really motivating. It can help you move through some of those difficulties and getting started because there's a lot and that's complicated stuff. And if you don't take time to network and establish a community and find a mentor, then it can be really difficult to work your way through it.
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, I agree. And as far as the mentor goes too, it's really cool when you have these stories from people that you helped out at one time. And that's the reason I really encourage mentoring because you don't understand sometimes the littlest thing and how much it means to someone, because I've had people come up back from my CAD drafting days. There was a guy that I worked with that he ran blueprints and did general office stuff and showed him a little bit about AutoCAD. And he became a CAD draftsman and later moved on to IT and we met for dinner one night. He reconnected and said, I wanted to thank you for what you did to help me, it changed my life. And it really wasn't a lot that I did, but it meant a lot to him and helped him. So when you start getting that feedback, it motivates you to do more. Because I mean, I'm a powerlifter and some of the first mentoring I probably did was coach people and help them with routines. But the thing I find most rewarding about stuff career wise is you're helping someone put 20 pounds on their bench press, after a year or two, that's not gonna mean so much. But when you help someone advance their career, learn something, that's a lifetime thing or building block to the bigger things for them.
Jason Nickola:
Absolutely. Yeah. So you've done a fair amount of mentoring at this point and I'm sure that you've seen even some of your mentees move on to have some success in the field and become mentors themselves. What are some of the things that you would recommend for someone who thinks, I have a little bit of skills and I have some knowledge and I have an interesting path and experience that I'd like to share with other people. How do you get started being a mentor?
Phillip Wylie:
I think attending different local meetup groups, conferences or even social media, cause a lot of times people underestimate themselves because, okay, say if you're on help desk or maybe you're a system administrator, you got someone just trying to get into it that doesn't understand and you have a lot that you can offer. Even if you're just know entering into a help desk, there's things and experiences you can share with them that will take them years to experience. So I think a lot of times people underestimate themselves. Try to help out. You know, if someone needs help, offer your advice and a lot of cases you're gonna find people you can help. If this particular person you can do only so much for, there's some people that you can do more, but just as you get started with it and if you really like mentoring, the word gets out because people will recommend you, but yeah, just interacting with people.
If you're going to college somewhere, if you've got someone in your class that's not getting it, help them out. Because I remember when I was going through CAD school, I had a hard time with the computer side of it and it ended up being the part that worked the best for me. It's just once people learn and get that experience then they can advance from there. But yeah, definitely just the different social events and through social media. The thing too is once you mentor these people, then they're coming back with tools and articles and stuff that help you. You've got the same interests. They're building experience and as they're learning stuff, and especially when people are new, they're doing a lot more research and studying than probably the average person. So they run across stuff that you may not. So it's kind of a way to have people almost researching for you, you know?
Jason Nickola:
Yeah, it definitely works both ways. And I find that you mentioned people wondering whether or not they have the knowledge or skills to really translate that to anybody else. Like what do I have to offer is something that I hear a lot. But everybody has something that they can teach others. And not only that for you to learn a subject enough to be able to teach it to someone else so that they can use it and practically apply it is a really, really important part of the learning process for yourself. Right? So teaching it is kind of the next step of learning it, right? So you learn it, you teach it, and that is so important in the trajectory of anybody who wants to become really well-crafted in their field I think.
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah. Totally agree. To be able to teach someone how to do things, you go back revisit tools or something you haven't used in a while and maybe you research a little bit more to see some of the functionalities. So yeah, definitely teaching for me was I wanted to speak at conferences and I'd spoke at a conference in 2015 on web application pen testing. But I was really trying to find subjects and things that I could offer at conferences. And then just presenting on how to become a pen tester and doing workshops. And so that gave me something to speak on at conferences and teach about.
Jason Nickola:
When you first started trying to branch out and give talks and go to meetups and give workshops and these kinds of things, did you have a little voice in the back of your head that said, you know, maybe you shouldn't do this or you know, other people know more than you do or things like imposter syndrome or those kinds of things. Is that something that you had to work your way through?
Phillip Wylie:
That was definitely there. And one of the things I had that helped me when I was teaching, because I would teach a lecture sometimes and you know you do something for a while, some of the more elementary stuff may be boring. And when I was getting started out teaching, I would think, man, this is so boring. I hope they're not bored. I hope they're getting something out of it. Right. And every time or pretty close within that time, some student would come up and say, thanks a lot. That was really, really cool. Very interesting, I didn't know that. And you know, thanks for teaching me this and then you get feedback at the end. So it kind of taught me, yeah, I had those voices. But then one of the things, and I hear a lot of other people that are hesitant to start, but I told them realize this area of pen testing, there's not a whole, I mean, it's not a super overpopulated field.
There's a lot of people trying to learn it and just knowing something that they don't know, you're able to offer them something. So yeah, it was tough and I still see that and there's times that I want to move into more advanced topics and then I feel like I'm not qualified to do so, but I just always remember that there's always someone that doesn't know that. And so yeah, I definitely go through that. And a lot of other people I know do that, but you just get out there and do it. Once you get out there and teach it, you'll get that feedback and you'll realize that you definitely need to, because by being quiet you're one less voice that can help these people and everyone has a different way to explain things.
You may take the same similar course two or three times and then one person explains it the certain way.
Jason Nickola:
Right. So there are a couple of things that I have to ask you about. So I heard you wrestled a bear.
Phillip Wylie:
Yes.
Jason Nickola:
And I think I've seen a picture floating around on social media of you and a bear.
Phillip Wylie:
Yep.
Jason Nickola:
Can you tell us about the bear?
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, that that came about because whenever I was wrestling, I wrestled once a week and wrestled for WCCW for a while, they were all over the South. But then the local Dallas wrestling, world-class championship wrestling out of Dallas. I was wrestling there Saturdays for the television taping so I could make a living off the money from wrestling, but while I was still trying to build that career I was working, working as a bouncer downtown.
And so this nightclub on Sundays, they would do special events because Fridays and Saturdays they would have a band in there, but Sundays were usually slow. So they decided to bring in this wrestling bear. And since I was a hometown guy and I worked at the nightclub and a pro wrestler, they helped market this event with one of my wrestling promotional pictures and the bear's picture. And it was open to everyone to wrestle, but it was more like an event to try to bring people in. And so it was an interesting experience because whenever I wrestled the bear and the other people when they went up to wrestle him, they were just standing straight up and this bear would actually grab them and take their legs out from under them. So when it came my turn, I knew I needed to get down like in a wrestling stance or a lineman stance and get my feet out and get forward.
And so I was able to keep him from taking me down. But it was an interesting experience. So I wrestled him twice that night and the second time I wrestled him, he ended up biting my ring finger, but it wasn't too hard and the trainer for the bear was saying, hold on, we'll get your finger out. And I'm thinking, I'm not going to wait in case this bear decides to bite my finger off. But it was an interesting experience.
Jason Nickola:
So what, what was more nerve wracking for you - wrestling the bear or the first time you gave a talk at a conference?
Phillip Wylie:
Probably first time speaking at conference.
Jason Nickola:
I don't know if that's doing any favors for people listening and hoping to hear that it's not so bad, but it gets better, right?
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, it does. And one of the things I would advise anyone if you're wanting to speak at conferences and the thing that helped me, and I wouldn't be able to do it if it wasn't for that, was Toastmasters. So when I decided I wanted to speak at conferences, I was at one of the local meetups. They were opening up CFPs for BSides DFW that year, and the person announcing the CFP said the best job I got in my career was because I spoke at conferences and once I heard that next week I was signed up in Toastmasters and went through Toastmasters. And so that helped overcome the fears.
Just with speaking, you're nervous sometimes, but people don't really see what you feel. That's one of the things that helped me get over that, and then everyone can relate because getting up and speaking sometimes can be nerve wracking. But Toastmasters helped me overcome that. And then teaching and speaking at conferences and stuff helps. So before I'd be terrified and there's no way I would get up in front of an audience, but now I don't care what size audience, I'll get up there.
Jason Nickola:
And audiences are much more forgiving than I think we assume they are.
Phillip Wylie:
Yeah, definitely. I saw a tweet recently, someone was talking about speaking at conferences and they say the people want you to succeed, they don't want you to fail. The people can understand because not everyone thinks they can get up there and do that.
Jason Nickola:
And it's just like power lifting, you get enough reps and eventually you're pushing your max and you're on to bigger and better things.
Phillip Wylie:
And with speaking, you just got gotta realize you're better at it than you think you are. A lot of it's you feel nervous and all this. And it's funny to get feedback, like in Toastmasters no one could tell I was nervous, but I was like sweating and nervous and no one saw that. And then just like at conferences and you get feedback on yeah, you did a good job presenting or whatever speaking and you're kind of surprised. So people are always better than what they think they are. You're your hardest critic and you gotta realize when you're speaking at conferences, people don't want you to fail. They're trying to get information. And there's a lot of people that would like to be up there doing the same thing.
Jason Nickola:
Absolutely. So Phillip, you're working on a book, right?
Phillip Wylie:
Yes.
Jason Nickola:
Tell us about the book.
Phillip Wylie:
Yes. This book is going to be about pen testing and it's based on my talk that I give at conferences called the pen tester blueprint, and is basically telling people how to become a pen tester. There's lots of books out there on pen testing, but you know as well as I do someone wanting to get into a certain part of security or pen testing, they don't understand the prerequisites. So this is a way to show them what they need to know upfront before they even start the educational process for pen testing and then goes to the details. My vision of this book is for people that want to be a pen tester and then for management, say you're a security manager that's going to get pen tests done and you're managing them either through your own staff or are consultants that you have an idea of the process just to educate people on the overall process.
Jason Nickola:
So, this is your first book.
Phillip Wylie:
Yes.
Jason Nickola:
So you are an experienced cyber security professional and penetration tester, but are new to the book writing scene. Is this something that you're working with someone who's more established? Do you have anyone who that has gone through the process that's helping you through it and coaching it? Are you, or are you kind of figuring it out the way that you did with computers in the beginning?
Phillip Wylie:
Just kind of figuring it out. Although I was in the tribe of hackers red team book and I mentioned it on LinkedIn and one of the people that worked for the publisher contacted me, asked me if I was interested in a book and I've had this idea for a while. I just wasn't sure what publisher to use. And I thought about self-publishing, but I liked idea of being published through someone because it seems to give you a little more credibility. And so they approached me about doing a book and this was perfect. So I shared my idea. They had me do a proposal and an outline and they accepted it and I signed a contract back in October and started on it. So I'm just kinda doing it on my own, although they've got editors working for me, I have a template I can use for the book.
And then if I have any questions, there's a team of people helping me. So they're going to review the book and they'll make recommendations of things to add or graphics and that type of stuff. So I've got help with it. Whereas that's the nice thing about doing it this way opposed to self-publishing, you get the help. But I've got the people from the publisher because they want the book to be successful too. So they're going to do their best to help you. So it's been an interesting process so far and I'm really looking forward to getting the book completed and out there.
Jason Nickola:
So, where can listeners find you and interact with you if they're looking to get some more information or just get in touch with you?
Phillip Wylie:
Twitter or LinkedIn are the best ways and my Twitter is just Phillip with two L's, Wylie, that's a real good place. And I post a lot information on Twitter and LinkedIn and I'm very active there. So there's a lot of people that will hit me up there and on DMs to ask questions. So those are the best ways to contact me. Plus if you contact, you connect with me on Twitter, you can find some other good people to follow as well.
Jason Nickola:
Perfect. Well, Philip, thank you so much for your time. It's been great chatting with you a little bit. I learned a lot and I'm looking forward to the book and everything else you have coming up in the future.
Phillip Wylie:
Thanks for including me in your first podcast. I enjoyed it.
Jason Nickola:
Awesome. Well thanks everyone for tuning in. We really appreciate it. Hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you next time.